The Evolution of Play as Our Learning Superpower - Peter Gray | grokludo 20

Why do we play?

Not only that – why do we play more than any other animal, and for longer? Well into adulthood, in fact?

Raph Koster, who's been on the podcast before, brought out A Theory of Fun in 2006, which aimed to put an evolutionary psychology lens over fun. The theory (spoiler!) was that fun is learning.

But back then, it felt more like a theory. After 20 years of new science connecting fun and learning, it's starting to feel more like fact.

So I sought out Peter Gray, research professor of psychology and neuroscience at Boston College. He's the author of the incredibly well-researched Free to Learn, as well as his blog, Play Makes Us Human.

Peter has spent decades on the question of why we play, and how a playful state of mind is kind of a learning superpower. He joins grokludo to talk about our evolutionary drive to play, as well as how these ideas weren't taken seriously for almost a century, and how we can use that info in designing our lives.

Reading Gray's book, and in this conversation, I was introduced to German philosopher Karl Groos, who published a lot of these ideas at the start of the 20th century. His evolutionary ideas around animal play were embraced, while the same ideas around humans were dismissed – largely forgotten until the field of evolutionary psychology flourished a century later.

"[Groos'] book was actually panned when it first came out," says Gray. "They had this idea you had to explain things in terms of causal mechanisms, you can't explain behaviour in terms of its effect.

"Well of course, the whole Darwinian approach is to explain the evolution of behaviour in terms of its effect, these came about because of the effects they have. But that way of thinking was totally foreign, and was thought of as unscientific."

Later in the episode I show Gray the Bartle Matrix and get his take on the overlap of player types and evolutionary drives. Stick around till the end for the best possible argument a kid can give their parent for playing fast-paced action games.

That's also our last episode of the year! I hope you've enjoyed it – expect grokludo to be back in February, and there are already some great guests lined up.

In the meantime, look out for a mid-break post in which I'm planning to ask for feedback. The hope is to generate an online form so anyone can give feedback anonymously. I've already got some ideas for improvements in 2026, but I want your ideas too!

Have a great break!